Where have the cgi gone?

Jamie Baddeley jamie.baddeley at vpc.co.nz
Sat Jan 24 04:45:33 CET 2004


Paul,

I'm sick of reading your crap. It's /dev/null for you. 

I suggest to the community (Hmm, Paul - is that an alien concept for
you?) that you all do the same.

Marc's right. If you are representative of the kind of support that is
available that from Softflare, then I pity your customers.

Bye bye.

jamie
 
On Sat, 2004-01-24 at 16:13, Paul L. Allen wrote:
> Marc Powell writes: 
> 
> > And this user, who is setting up nagios for the first time,
> 
> Who is supposedly a *nix admin (because he needs root to install nagios)
> who works for what is either an ISP or the IT department of a company
> with many machines that need to be monitored (or else he has no reason
> to install it in the first place).  He OUGHT to be clueful about *nix or
> he shouldn't be messing around with root privileges or working for
> an ISP or IT department with many machines. 
> 
> > is supposed to go through every possible menu option and link for the 
> > cgi's that do work and discover the thing that they all don't do??
> 
> Guess what I did when I installed Nagios and added a few hosts and
> services to test it?  That's right.  I went through EVERYTHING, playing
> with it, familiarizing myself with it, spotting services that were
> showing up as critical and working out why. 
> 
> I went through the lot.  And if I'd found that some of them hadn't
> worked I'd have noted which ones (as he did).  Unlike him, I'd have
> tried to figure out why before asking silly questions here. 
> 
> > How are they supposed to know that none of the cgi's that do work don't 
> > generate images 3 levels in?
> 
> Ah, the highly plausible "page not found that suddenly becomes findable
> if you go deep enough by clicking several times on the link on the
> page that could not be found" theory.  Yes, right.  When you can't
> find your car because it has been stolen, if you get into your non-existent
> car and floor the gas pedal three times, you'll find your car.  Guaranteed. 
> 
> > Again, not everyone is as experienced as you apparently are, especially
> > on a mailling list intended _specifically_ for providing just the
> > kind of help this person was asking for.
> 
> No, it is intended to help CLUEFUL people who put in some effort on
> their own to figure out what the problem is.  Since I read newest mail
> first, I hadn't seen this moron's other posts.  Just look at what you're
> trying to defend. 
> 
> His first problem is that some CGIs throw up "not found" errors in his
> browser.  He could have read the docs, he could have looked at the
> FAQ, he could have searched google, instead he asked the
> animated paperclip (the one that doesn't mind how many hours a day
> people spend asking it stupid questions and which he believes inhabits
> this list). 
> 
> Well, the animated paperclip didn't respond quickly enough.  So either
> he decided to actually try thinking about it or, more likely, a co-worker
> gave him a hint.  So he looked in the apache error logs and found
> "could not stat /usr/local/nagios/sbin/statusmap.cgi" which he DID NOT
> UNDERSTAND.  Remember, this is supposedly a *nix admin, and he has no
> idea what this means.  So again he turns to the animated paperclip. 
> 
> Again, the animated paperclip does not respond quickly enough.  A little,
> dim light-bulb appears over his head.  That looks like a *nix filesystem
> path, he thinks.  One that looks similar to /usr/local/nagios/etc where he
> now remembers having edited config files.  What if he actually LOOKS IN
> THAT DIRECTORY?  Wow!  The files are missing!  Time to ask the animated
> paperclip again.  Maybe a dog ate them or UFO aliens abducted them or
> something.  After all, if you have no clue whatsoever about being a *nix
> admin, anything might happen. 
> 
> So, rather than READ THE DOCUMENTATION, or LOOK IN THE FAQS, or SEARCH
> GOOGLE, or REBUILD AND LOOK FOR ERROR MESSAGES, or READ THE SOURCE, like
> any competent *nix admin would do, he asks the animated paperclip yet
> again.  Any halfway competent *nix admin would have figured out the CGIs
> were missing without having to ask the list. 
> 
> Your argument that he is new to Nagios does not hold water.  I was new
> to Nagios when I installed it.  Nagios is a tool spefically for use
> by ISPs and IT departments.  Anyone even thinking about installing it
> should already be a semi-competent *nix admin or shouldn't be working
> for such a company in the first place. 
> 
> > Regardless of what you might think, the answers provided on this list
> > are a direct reflection of the kind of support an end-user can expect
> > when adopting Nagios, of Nagios itself and of *nix in general.
> 
> Correct.  If you are installing Nagios on a *nix machine then you
> really ought to have at least some clue about *nix in the first place
> or you shouldn't be messing around as root.  If you have a NEED to
> install Nagios then you really ought to have significantly more clues
> than the average home user of Windows who only uses it to play games and
> surf for porn. 
> 
> As for *nix in general and mailing lists/support lists, I suggest you take
> a long read of <URL: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html >.
> And then try to remember that the average home user of Windows is not
> going to try installing Nagios on a *nix box.  A person with an actual
> need to instal Nagios ought to be significantly more clued than this
> guy was, and have some idea about asking questions on lists sensibly,
> even if they don't know who ESR is. 
> 
> > If I had consistently seen those kinds of responses when I started
> > using Netsaint several years ago I would have seriously reconsidered.
> 
> Some people post here and show that they have put in an effort to find
> the answer themselves before asking on the list.  They understand that
> the people on this list are giving them what is in effect free tech
> support and that they should not appear to be leaches who can't do their
> job properly and want somebody else to do it for them for free.  I've
> asked questions here, but only after I've exhausted other avenues.  And
> when I ask questions here I explain what I've done to try to figure out
> the answer for myself to prove that I'm not leaching and taking the
> easy way out. 
> 
> > It baffles me how someone with a .sig of 'Softflare Support' doesn't 
> > understand these kinds of things.
> 
> The support you get from Softflare comes at a price - you PAY for it.
> If you're paying for my time (either as an isolated call or because
> you have a support contract) then you can ask all the stupid questions
> you want and I will be pleasant and courteous (even if I think you're a
> complete moron).  If this guy wants to pay Softflare to install and
> configure Nagios for him we will be more than happy to do so and I will
> guarantee that whichever of us installs and configures it for him will
> not call him a moron. 
> 
> >>>> That one doesn't generate graphs.  But it does generate a status
> >>>> map, which is a graphic that is created on-the-fly.
> > 
> > How would they know? They can't run it.
> 
> They can read the docs, which contain screenshots.  They can visit the
> test site.  I did both of those things before deciding to install
> Nagios because there was no point wasting my time installing it if
> either the docs or the test site showed it had serious shortcomings.
> Reading the docs would be necessary if I installed it, so reading the
> docs first could save time if it is clear from the docs that it does
> not meet my requirements.  No sane person would install it first, then
> read the docs, then decide from reading the docs that it was no good
> for their needs, unless installing it was the ONLY way to get at the
> docs. 
> 
> > Again, you presume that the user fully understands what's going on. As
> > far as they know it could be generated with VRML, NetPBM, ImageMagick
> > or sprites even.
> 
> It could use any image manipulation utility.  The point I made was that
> HAD to use AN image manipalation utility because those images had to
> be created ON THE FLY.  I used those words many times in my first post
> to this thread, but I never mentioned the name of a particular image
> manipulation utility or library.  I wanted him to go digging for himself
> to find out that he needed gdlib. 
> 
> The point being, as I stated originally, that it was patently obvious to
> anyone who had read the docs about what things did (whether before or after
> finding out that some of the links didn't work) and who had put in a
> minimal amount of THOUGHT, that the three failing CGIs had a property in
> common not shared by the other CGIs. 
> 
> > And don't rebutt that those aren't mentioned in the requirements
> > document. It's already been established that they didn't read or 
> > understand the meaning of the GD libs or their function.
> 
> You make my point for me.  Rather than read the docs, look at the FAQs
> (it was you, I believe, who said his problem is covered in a couple
> of the FAQs), do a google search or any of the other things that should
> be instinctive to a *nix admin (no matter what package he or she is
> installing), he came straight to the list.  Again and again, with a
> slow-drip water torture of questions showing that he is capable of
> learning, but not much faster than a snail doped up on Xanax. 
> 
> > Yes, it was very clear that was what you meant. Oh, wait, I have to go
> > to my second job at the Psychic Friends Network... Yes, in a perfect
> > world those are all things that should have been done, but it's not a
> > perfect world, he didn't and this _is_ a support list.
> 
> It is NOT a support list.  A support list is staffed by professionals
> who give you complete and courteous answers because you PAY them to do
> so.  This is a self-help list where people help themselves and others.
> One important part of self-help is actually getting involved yourself
> rather than expecting everyone else to do it for you. 
> 
> > To answer basically 'RTFM' without giving a specific suggestion of 
> > where to look or what to look for is useless,
> 
> Only to the sort of clueless person who should not be installing Nagios
> anyway.  If you don't know enough to read the documentation, FAQs, etc.
> when things go wrong then you really should not have the root password.
> Even so, I reminded him of the docs and gave him a very strong clue
> about what sort of thing he should be looking for in the docs.  If he
> has any potential at all, the next time he will mention what he has
> done in order to try to solve the problem himself. 
> 
> > especially with the significant (in a positive light) amounts of FM to R 
> > for Nagios.
> 
> There is a lot of manual and it could probably be re-organized for the
> better.  But I've seen far worse.  In any case, his problem was not
> using it but installing it (and the docs are very hand-holding in
> that respect compared to stuff like RT).  In the end, a *nix admin
> installing a package to do geeky ISP-like things ought to have some
> clue about where to look for answers BEFORE resorting to a list.  Even
> an "I looked through the docs but couldn't see anything obvious" would
> have shown he at least made the effort. 
> 
> > Again, that's your experience talking. Not everyone has that experience.
> > Years ago you could have gotten away with expecting that, but with the
> > golden age of linux upon us that can not be expected any more. More and
> > more people are using linux which is great, but at the same time, those
> > people are inexperienced and don't know all the possible things to look
> > for.
> 
> Specious argument.  Sure, people are using Linux on the desktop without
> really knowing much about installing anything that isn't in an RPM, or
> knowing about networking in general.  But those people have no reason to
> monitor network services and the health of network servers. 
> 
> Your argument would apply if this was some home-use application
> package like a game.  Your argument would apply if this was some
> business package  which was not IT-related, like an accounting package,
> or a payroll package, or a spreadsheet.  Then you might reasonably expect
> a home-user, point-and-click, level of knowledge and stupid questions. 
> 
> THIS IS A PACKAGE FOR NETWORK ADMINS MONITORING NETWORK SERVICES AND
> SERVERS.  They are to be expected to know a little more about things
> than ordinary home users playing with Linux as a desktop machine.  It
> is NOT unreasonable to expect such a person to understand something
> about webservers, for instance, or at least to have a cow-orker that
> does.  It is NOT unreasonable to expect such a person to at least think
> about looking at the documentation if things don't work.  It is NOT
> unreasonable to expect such a person to think of looking for an FAQ
> (just about every commercial website I look at has an FAQ and even
> home users know what one is).  It is NOT unreasonable to expect such
> a person to do a google search (even some home users know about
> google - in fact most of them do). 
> 
> > But it is rocket science
> 
> Standard *nix installation procedures should not be rocket science to
> anyone who has any need to actually install it. 
> 
> > and these people are not all *nix admins. Some people are playing with 
> > linux to see what they can do with it,
> 
> You've lost the plot.  "Here I am, sat at home, playing with Linux to
> see what I can do with it.  What can I try?  I know, I'll try installing
> a package to monitor network services and servers and alert me if any
> of them fail, even though I don't actually have anything to monitor and
> have no intention of ever applying for a job with an ISP."  Do try and
> remember who is going to want to install Nagios and why. 
> 
> > I'm going to bet that it's a rare person who is experienced in linux
> > today who didn't have a mentor to help them with these very types of 
> > things.
> 
> I got dumped in at the deep-end several years ago, when I joined the
> world's most clueless company (now, thankfully, defunct) and had to
> build a replacement Linux server for the semi-broken one their previous
> techy had built many years ago.  This was before all the sophisticated
> auto-install that worked smoothly but after the "grab the kernel sources,
> and boot-strap it from scratch" releases had gone away.  No help on
> installing or configuring new packages except what I could find in the
> docs.  It was all new and strange to me, but I had problem-solving
> skills... 
> 
> Basically, to be a *nix admin or a techy at an ISP or in IT support
> you need PROBLEM-SOLVING SKILLS that go beyond trying to get free
> tech support by asking questions on a mailing list and hoping somebody
> will take pity on you and give you answers so you don't have to do
> any of that horrible LEARNING stuff. 
> 
> > Like it or not, this is a support list
> 
> I have already pointed out that you are wrong.  The reply address is
> not nagios-support at lists.sourceforge.net but nagios-users at ... 
> 
> > and we _are_ paperclips.
> 
> You are perfectly entitled to give unpaid support for free, if you are
> masochistic enough.  Since this is a self-help list, I will continue to
> help people even if that involves first teaching them that they have to
> show they have tried to do some of the work for themselves before they
> can expect much help from most of us. 
> 
> > I would much rather someone go away with an un-answered question
> > than the admitted condescending response you gave.
> 
> Feel free to plonk me, then you will not have to read my responses.  I
> would prefer that people learn they have to learn.  Give a man a fish
> and you feed him for a day; teach him how to fish and you feed him
> for life.  You want to keep doling out the fish, I want to tell people
> about fishing rods (except when it comes to paid support, then I would
> prefer them to keep buying fish). 
> 
> > It serves no one.
> 
> Actually, it might have taught the guy to try thinking for himself for
> a little before asking questions that anybody with a real need to
> install Nagios ought to be capable of answering for himself anyway. 
> 
> > I expect an end user to have a basic grasp of those subjects but I do
> > not expect that they fully understand all the intracacies of a software
> > package that they are installing for the first time.
> 
> I don't expect anyone to fully understand software they are installing
> for the first time.  I DO expect somebody who ought to be a fairly
> experienced *nix admin installing software that is only of use to
> experienced *nix admins to have some minimal knowledge of *nix.  I
> don't expect the petrol pump attendant to know where the filler cap is
> on a car he's never seen before, but I do expect him not to just pump
> petrol through the open sun roof because he doesn't know where the
> filler cap is.  YMMV... 
> 
> > And how exactly did you give this person help or an opportunity to learn
> > from this help?
> 
> I aided him by pointing out that the answer was within his means to find
> out for himself without any help from anyone else other than knowing the
> answer was in the documentation and that he was missing a library needed
> to create images on the fly.  Unless you think he was too stupid to
> figure that out from what I wrote, in which case he is probably too
> stupid to own a computer. 
> 
> > Your response in a nutshell was 'You're an idiot. I know
> > exactly what your problem is but you've got to re-read all the 65 pages
> > of documentation, then the 118 FAQ's, then the README, CHANGELOG and
> > INSTALLING documents.
> 
> He doesn't have to read ALL of them unless he's unlucky.  Statisically,
> he only has to read half of them.  If he can figure out how to use
> the contents page in the docs to find the FAQs quickly, and can figure
> out how to use the FAQ contents to find the right FAQs quickly, he might
> get an answer in under 15 minutes.  If he really is an idiot then he
> really will have to read the whole lot because he won't recognize the
> answer even when he sees it.  Since you believe he will have to read all
> of the documentation, FAQs, readmes, etc., then your opinion of him
> is very low. 
> 
> > Even though I could point you to exactly what you should read to learn
> > how to solve your problem
> 
> You've lost the plot again.  I told him EXACTLY what he needed to
> learn to solve his problem.  He needed to learn how to approach
> *nix admin problems as a REAL *nix admin would by getting some
> problem-solving skills.  Of course, he had to solve a minor problem
> just to figure out what he needed to learn, but if that's beyond him
> then there is no hope for him (and it was part of the lesson). 
> 
> > Normally, I would have ignored an RTFM response but you took it to the 
> > next level, treating this person like a 5 year old child right off the 
> > bat.
> 
> Yes, I made a mistake there because I hadn't read his earlier posts.  Had
> I read those first, I would have treated him like a 3-year-old. 
> 
> > If you don't like your role as a Nagios support representative,
> 
> Is the weather nice on your planet?  Nobody here is a Nagios support
> representative.  There are Nagios users of varying degrees of
> cluefulness and occasionally Nagios developers.  None of them is paid
> to give support to anyone or represents anyone but themselves (I'd
> file off my standard work sig, but I can't be bothered). 
> 
> > either don't participate or only respond to questions that are of a 
> > sufficient caliber to engage your intellect. 
> 
> I'll make you a deal (whether you accept it or not, I will honour my
> part of it).  You get to control which messages you read, which messages
> you respond to, and what you write in your responses; I get to control
> which messages I read, which messages I respond to, and what I write
> in my responses.  You get the option to not read what I write, you do
> not get the option to tell me what I may or may not write.  I get the
> option to not read what you write, I do not get the option to tell you
> what you may or may not write.  There is a special legal term for this
> kind of deal: it's known as "reality." 
> 
> > All that just so you didn't have to say "You need GD. Look in the FAQ".
> 
> Either he is a real *nix admin with a real need for Nagios for *nix
> admin type purposes, in which case he needs to learn how to go about
> figuring things out for himself and to learn a LOT more about *nix,
> or he is not, in which case he is wasting his time and ours installing
> something he will never actually use. 
> 
> This is not an "I am new to Linux and need help" list, this is supposedly
> an "I am a real *nix admin and want to do seriously geeky things because
> I work for an ISP" list.  I expect a *nix admin to know what
> "could not stat /usr/local/nagios/sbin/statusmap.cgi" means or at least
> to be able to figure it out without first seeing if the animated paperclip
> has an answer.  I expect somebody thrown in at the deep end to at least
> offer an apology for not really knowing what he's doing. 
> 
> -- 
> Paul Allen
> Softflare Support 
> 
> 
> 
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